Creating Customers from Content with Sam Howard
Episode Summary
In this episode, Jess interviews Sam Howard, a copywriter who specializes in B2B SaaS startups. They discuss the challenges startups face in copywriting and the importance of understanding customer perspective in increasing conversion rates. Sam emphasizes the need for accurate positioning and differentiation in creating compelling copy and highlights the value of customer research in identifying the root issues in how a product or service is received. They also discuss the latest trends in startup copywriting and the effectiveness of different types of content. Additionally, they explore the significance of offer optimization and effective demo presentation in Copy for Conversion. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize the importance of clear and specific communication in copywriting and the use of tools like Loom for effective communication.
About
Sam Howard
Sam Howard is a seasoned conversion copywriter and strategist, specializing in the B2B SaaS startup sector. She has a knack for bridging the gap between what customers actually want and what companies think they need. Her expertise lies in extracting insights from customer research to optimize messaging, positioning, and offer design to enhance conversions. With a strong belief in the power of customer interviews, she dives deep into understanding her clients' challenges with pricing, positioning, or copywriting, and guides them towards tailored solutions that resonate with their audiences. Above all, Sam's primary focus is to align startups with their customer needs, ensuring their product value is clearly communicated and understood before prospects even join a demo.
Tools & Relevant Links
Episode Takeaways
Customer Research, Copywriting, Understanding Consumer Behavior
In this episode, Jess interviews Sam on the topic of transforming customer research into effective copy. They discuss the discrepancy observed between how companies perceive their product's needs and how customers are actually using it. Sam offers insights into how customer research can be used to align with the consumer wants.
"They're so into why they think people need it that they don't see how customers are actually using the product and what they actually want from it. It's such a big discrepancy."
B2B SaaS, Conversion Copywriting, Ecommerce
In the conversation, Sam Howard talks about how her work focuses primarily on copywriting for B2B SaaS startups. Interestingly, she says she stumbled upon this niche unexpectedly. However, the dynamism and intrigue of the B2B SaaS sector have kept her immersed in it. Jess and Sam discuss the complexities and nuances of B2B compared to Ecommerce, its longer sales cycles, and the depth of information a potential client seeks before purchase.
"I like B two B SaaS because it's always new and unexpected and there's all the cool products that emerge, so there's never a dull moment."
Conversion Rate Optimization, Customer Perspective, Startups
In their conversation, Jess and Sam Howard discuss the importance of understanding customer perspective in increasing conversion rates for startups. They highlight the common mistake of startups being too focused on their product to see its value from a customer's viewpoint. Jess shares a personal experience with a product she likes but has identified a gap in their sales pitch.
"The thing that stops most of the startups from being really tuned into conversion rate optimization is being way invested in their product."
Consumer understanding, Customer interviews, Issue identification
In the interview with Sam Howard, he emphasizes the importance of conducting customer interviews in the process of identifying the root issues in how a product or service is being received. she explores the problem-locating process, beginning with internal interviews that appraise the offer, the attracted prospects, ans the clarity of the copy provided. Incidents where a customer has misunderstood the product due to unclear communication is mentioned by Jess.
"A bigger problem is figuring out what the problem actually is. Is it the offer? Is it that we're attracting wrong prospects? And if so, why? Or could it be simply that the copy is so unclear that website visitors are just like, well, I think that's this thing. So I'm going to hit sign up button and then be sorrowfully disappointed?"
Startup Copywriting, Positioning, Competitor Research
Jess converses with Sam Howard about the common challenges startups face in copywriting, positioning, and competitor research. They review the importance of customer research and the effectiveness of different types of content based on the target audience's preferences.
Do you see any trends in the challenges that startups face in their copywriting?
One common challenge is the positioning and pricing of their product or service. Many startups struggle with finding the right messaging and price point to effectively communicate their value to customers.
Is there a specific aspect of positioning that startups often struggle with?
One common issue is the desire to create a new category or be seen as a category of one. While this can be appealing, it can also make it difficult for customers to understand what the startup actually does. This can result in confusion and ineffective marketing.
How do you address the need for effective positioning?
I recommend conducting customer research to gain insights into how customers perceive the product or service. This research can help identify opportunities for differentiation and specificity in messaging to better resonate with target audiences.
Do you also conduct competitor research to inform positioning?
Yes, competitor research is an important aspect of understanding the competitive landscape and identifying opportunities for differentiation. Reading reviews can be especially helpful in uncovering how customers perceive competitors and what motivates their preferences.
Are there any unexpected directions that customer interviews can take?
Yes, customer feedback can often provide surprising insights and challenge the assumptions that startups may have about their product or service. These surprises can include what customers actually care about and the type of information they seek when making purchasing decisions.
How do you address the need for different lengths of copy to serve different audiences?
It's important to balance the needs of different audiences. Visual techniques can be used to break up page content and make it easily scannable for those who prefer shorter content. At the same time, providing comprehensive information can cater to more analytical customers who appreciate having all the details readily available. Web copy is often the preferred format for content consumption.
Is there a preference for website copy over PDFs?
Generally, web copy is preferred over PDFs because it allows for easier consumption and navigation. PDFs can have their uses but are less common in my experience as a copywriter.
"I think a lot of that is the amount of noise around positioning as a thing. So my favorite pet peeve is the category of one. Just do your own category and Blue Ocean and it's going to be awesome."
Startup Copywriting, MailChimp vs. Marketo and Hubspot, Writing Specificity
In the interview, Sam Howard discusses the latest trends in startup copywriting. He observes that many startups try to copy the strategies of market leaders without recognizing the importance of being specific and elaborating on what their company does. They also discuss MailChimp’s transformation from a specific email marketing tool to a competitive platform against HubSpot and Marketo.
"I think that for startups, the biggest trend is let us follow best practices or let us go to the swipe file of the same awesome SaaS websites and try to be just like them."
Early Stage SaaS Companies, Positioning and Differentiation, Customer Research
In a discussion with Jess, Sam Howard, who predominantly works with earlier stage SaaS companies, emphasizes the need for aligned messaging with customer research feedback. He underscores the importance of accurate positioning and differentiation before creating compelling copy. He also discusses potential challenges when the assumed reasons for customer purchase deviate from actual customer motivations.
"Well, to be clear for messaging and positioning, my main task is to make sure that it is aligned with what's coming back from customer research because otherwise we'll just keep walking in a totally wrong direction and all of the copy work will be pointless."
Copy for conversion, Offer optimization, Demo presentation
Jess converses with Sam Howard about the significance of offer optimization and effective demo presentation in Copy for Conversion. They discuss how demos are often used as gateways but don't necessarily convey the product's 'wow' factor adequately. They explore alternatives, especially in situations where the product might be complex like ClickUp.
"So the bigger question of should it even be a demo aside, which I really wish more people would not just try and gate everything in sight, we can come back to that..."
tech stack, communication, loom
In a discussion between Jess and Sam Howard on Marketers Talking Marketing, a strong focus was placed on the use of loom in their tech stack. Sam Howard expressed his fondness for loom, highlighting its effectiveness in explaining his thought process. It is clearly a vital tool in their communication.
"I'm going to say loom, which is a very weird thing to say, but I like loom. It just helps me explain what I'm doing."
Additional Notes
[00:00:00] Turning Customer Research into Effective Copy
[00:00:00] Jess: They're so into why they think people need it that they don't see how customers are actually using the product and what they actually want from it.
[00:00:06] Jess: It's such a big discrepancy.
[00:00:13] Jess: Welcome to marketers.
[00:00:15] Jess: Talking marketing.
[00:00:16] Jess: Today we are joined by Sam and we are going to talk about turning customer research into copy.
[00:00:23] Jess: I almost said con tent, but I didn't.
[00:00:26] Jess: It's copy.
[00:00:28] Chat with Sam Howard, a B2B SaaS Conversion Copywriter and Strategist
[00:00:28] Jess: Sam, do you want to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself?
[00:00:32] Sam Howard: Sure.
[00:00:32] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:00:33] Sam Howard: I am definitely on the I write copy not content side of this.
[00:00:38] Sam Howard: A conversion copywriter and Strategist working with B two B SaaS startups.
[00:00:43] Sam Howard: Nice.
[00:00:44] Jess: And how did you get into working with B two B SaaS?
[00:00:47] Sam Howard: Randomly by chance?
[00:00:52] Sam Howard: Copywriters do.
[00:00:54] Jess: I don't think most B two B SaaS marketers in general intended to go into B two B SAS.
[00:01:00] Jess: We all just find ourselves here somehow.
[00:01:04] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:01:04] Sam Howard: And then we never leave.
[00:01:06] Jess: Pretty much.
[00:01:08] Jess: But you must like it that you haven't left yet, right?
[00:01:12] Jess: Okay.
[00:01:13] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:01:14] Sam Howard: I know for some people ecom is the place to be, but I like B two B SaaS because it's always new and unexpected and there's all the cool products that emerge, so there's never a dull moment.
[00:01:32] Jess: I know someone as I thought about saying this and I'm going to say it, I know someone listening is going to get offended by it.
[00:01:39] Jess: But I feel like B two B is a lot harder than Ecommerce or b to C.
[00:01:45] Jess: I think there's more nuances to it and it's more challenging.
[00:01:48] Jess: And I think that makes it more fun that it's not quite as direct.
[00:01:52] Jess: Like your sales cycles are longer.
[00:01:54] Jess: I think the amount of information and detail someone wants before making a purchase on the B two B side is completely different.
[00:02:03] Jess: I have bought so much stuff off Instagram ads because I thought it looked pretty.
[00:02:09] Jess: I'm not going to do that for $120,000 a year piece of software.
[00:02:13] Sam Howard: Probably not.
[00:02:14] Jess: Yes, you can't rely just on packaging and visuals for it.
[00:02:19] Understanding Your Customers: A Conversation with Startups
[00:02:19] Jess: But what are some of the things that you think become more compelling when writing for conversion?
[00:02:25] Sam Howard: I think that the thing that stops most of the startups from being really tuned into conversion rate optimization is being way invested in their product.
[00:02:42] Sam Howard: So it's not that they don't know what a good landing page looks like.
[00:02:47] Sam Howard: It's not that they are not aware of CGA best practices, but being able to kind of turn around and look at the website from the point of view of a prospect who has never seen the product in their life can be super hard.
[00:03:03] Jess: I laugh because there is a product that I absolutely love.
[00:03:06] Jess: I'm not going to name them, but I love them.
[00:03:09] Jess: And I keep telling them that their pitch is wrong and they'll say, here's what we do.
[00:03:14] Jess: And I'm like, well, what I tell people you do and why I'm able to refer you business is this other thing.
[00:03:21] Jess: And they go, oh, that's really a secondary benefit.
[00:03:24] Jess: I don't care about your primary benefit.
[00:03:26] Jess: That is why people are going to buy you.
[00:03:29] Jess: And so you should really lean into it.
[00:03:30] Jess: They're like, no, we know our audience.
[00:03:33] Jess: They really care about this other thing.
[00:03:35] Jess: And I could be wrong.
[00:03:36] Jess: I could have maybe just found an audience that cares about the second thing.
[00:03:40] Jess: But I don't think I'm wrong.
[00:03:42] Jess: But they're so into why they think people need it that they don't see how customers are actually using the product and what they actually want from it.
[00:03:51] Jess: It's such a big discrepancy that I think a lot of people face in your work.
[00:03:59] Jess: Part of it, right, is understanding why people want to buy, why they want to convert.
[00:04:03] Jess: And then you take that and you take that back to the startup.
[00:04:07] Jess: Do you find when you tell them what matters to people is different than what they think it is?
[00:04:12] Jess: How do they react to that?
[00:04:14] Jess: Are they often surprised?
[00:04:18] Sam Howard: My short answer is yes.
[00:04:22] Sam Howard: My longer answer is most of the starters that I work with start working with me because they realize they're internally running in endless circles and they just don't know how they can describe their product in a way that would resonate with their audience.
[00:04:39] Jess: So typically they've identified that there's a gap.
[00:04:43] Jess: They know that you're going to come back and tell them what people actually care about.
[00:04:47] Jess: Are they receptive?
[00:04:49] Sam Howard: Most of the time, yes.
[00:04:50] Sam Howard: Because they know they need to fix it.
[00:04:52] Jess: I feel like I could still see people being like, we figured it was what we thought it was the whole time.
[00:04:59] Jess: Just consumers are consumers don't understand the product.
[00:05:04] Sam Howard: A line I've heard.
[00:05:09] Understanding What Consumers Care About: An Interview with Sam Howard
[00:05:09] Jess: What are some of your techniques for figuring out what consumers really care about customer interviews?
[00:05:16] Sam Howard: It's not a technique.
[00:05:17] Sam Howard: It's more like, this is my go to and there's a lot more to it.
[00:05:24] Jess: Tell me more about it.
[00:05:25] Sam Howard: So let me break this down a bit.
[00:05:27] Sam Howard: Yeah, it doesn't have to be interviews, but I just prefer them because then I can ask follow up questions and not have those annoying survey responses when there's like three words and they feel like they've explained everything and you're like, I really wish I knew what you meant here.
[00:05:43] Jess: Why did you buy it works.
[00:05:46] Sam Howard: Okay, tell me more.
[00:05:49] Sam Howard: Tell me more.
[00:05:49] Sam Howard: Exactly.
[00:05:50] Sam Howard: So the way I work is I start with internal interviews so I can figure out what the problem is because I think that not being receptive to customer research insights is less of a problem.
[00:06:07] Sam Howard: A bigger problem is figuring out what the problem actually is.
[00:06:12] Sam Howard: Is it the offer?
[00:06:14] Sam Howard: Is it that we're attracting wrong prospects?
[00:06:18] Sam Howard: And if so, why?
[00:06:19] Sam Howard: Or could it be simply that the copy is so unclear that website visitors are just like, well, I think that's this thing.
[00:06:27] Sam Howard: So I'm going to hit sign up button and then be sorrowfully disappointed?
[00:06:33] Jess: Yes, I have been on the other end of that, where I've been on a call for a product that I thought did something totally different than it actually did.
[00:06:44] Jess: And I was like, oh, this is a waste of all of our time.
[00:06:47] Jess: It doesn't work.
[00:06:49] Discussion on Startup Copywriting Challenges
[00:06:49] Jess: Do you see any trends in that where it's often pricing and positioning or it's often one of the other things.
[00:06:59] Jess: Is there anything that tends to stand out as the most common thing that startups are getting challenged with?
[00:07:07] Sam Howard: And I am opening a can of worms here.
[00:07:12] Sam Howard: I think a lot of that is the amount of noise around positioning as a thing.
[00:07:19] Sam Howard: So my favorite pet peeve is the category of one.
[00:07:24] Sam Howard: Just do your own category and Blue Ocean and it's going to be awesome.
[00:07:30] Jess: Category creation is like the hottest buzzword right now.
[00:07:35] Jess: Everyone wants to create a new category.
[00:07:37] Jess: No one wants to fall into existing ones.
[00:07:40] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:07:40] Sam Howard: And then nobody can find you so paid traffic and related expenses, or nobody gets what you even do.
[00:07:50] Sam Howard: And then you have to try and explain it.
[00:07:52] Sam Howard: Like if Trello and Ex had a baby.
[00:07:56] Sam Howard: This can be also quite often misinterpreted.
[00:08:01] Sam Howard: What are you doing?
[00:08:03] Jess: We're the airbnb of Bam.
[00:08:06] Jess: We're the uber of FAM.
[00:08:08] Jess: It's like, what does that mean?
[00:08:11] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:08:11] Jess: What does that mean?
[00:08:14] Jess: Everyone too will see something where it feels like they don't want to be simplified.
[00:08:21] Jess: And so they're like, we're not just X, but we're actually in this whole thing.
[00:08:27] Jess: It's like, so you do X, so you do that.
[00:08:30] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:08:31] Sam Howard: And differentiation and positioning have to come before copy.
[00:08:36] Sam Howard: So that's something that needs to be addressed before we can even go in and work on the copy.
[00:08:43] Jess: Do you end up then also doing a lot of competitor research to figure out other people's positioning and how they may differentiate between your client and their competitors?
[00:08:55] Sam Howard: Yes, and my favorite way to go about this is read reviews.
[00:09:00] Sam Howard: Mostly because then you can competitors can also be somewhat biased in how they describe their product.
[00:09:08] Sam Howard: So I do not trust their website copy.
[00:09:12] Jess: Shocking.
[00:09:13] Sam Howard: Yes, very shocking.
[00:09:16] Sam Howard: But if you get into the reviews, you can see who actually is leaving them.
[00:09:21] Sam Howard: So who's the most motivated group of users and what are they saying?
[00:09:27] Sam Howard: So that helps kind of triangulate things a bit and figure out where there are opportunities to dial in.
[00:09:35] Sam Howard: Well, I don't want to say segmentation, but dial in specificity.
[00:09:40] Sam Howard: We are for this segment or we are better for these folks.
[00:09:46] Sam Howard: But again, it all has to come back to customer research.
[00:09:50] Jess: Do you find that you're also able to suss that out in your customer interviews?
[00:09:54] Jess: Where is it important in those interviews to ask about competitors or complementary tech or other things that might be competing for budget?
[00:10:03] Sam Howard: Yes, that is a very short answer.
[00:10:09] Jess: It makes sense.
[00:10:11] Jess: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Jess: So what are some of the maybe things that people aren't thinking about, including in a customer story that you liked or in a customer interview that you like to include?
[00:10:21] Sam Howard: Oh, one question came up really recently.
[00:10:24] Sam Howard: How would you describe our product to somebody else?
[00:10:27] Sam Howard: Or if you were to recommend us to a friend or a colleague, what would you say?
[00:10:32] Jess: I love asking that one.
[00:10:34] Jess: Actually, that came up on a podcast that I recorded earlier in the day because I think it's really hard oftentimes to when you build something, you're marketing it.
[00:10:44] Jess: It's really hard to understand how your customers see it and share it.
[00:10:50] Jess: So I actually often will ask that question when I get referrals in and I'll ask the person who did the referring like, thank you so much for introing, acme, co.
[00:11:01] Jess: Just so I understand, how did you describe them?
[00:11:03] Jess: How did you describe us to them?
[00:11:05] Jess: How did you describe our features and benefits to them?
[00:11:08] Jess: So that I can use the same messaging but inadvertently I'm able to see how are you talking about us?
[00:11:15] Jess: What language are you using?
[00:11:17] Jess: Is it casual?
[00:11:18] Jess: Is it formal?
[00:11:19] Jess: Are there certain features you care about?
[00:11:23] Jess: So yeah, that's also one of my favorites.
[00:11:27] Jess: When you're going about these interviews also, do you ever find that customers provide feedback that's totally different than you thought it was, than you thought it was going to be?
[00:11:39] Jess: Do you have any always of surprising directions?
[00:11:43] Jess: They've gone?
[00:11:44] Sam Howard: I try really hard to not have assumptions going into calls just because it's so easy to derail customer interviews when you start asking leading questions and basically explaining what you expect to hear as you're asking your questions.
[00:12:03] Sam Howard: There definitely have been many surprises and a lot of times it's what startup folks think is happening as those prospects come in and what is actually happening, especially things they care about, like the.
[00:12:23] Jess: Things that the customer cares about being different than what the startup thinks that they care about.
[00:12:28] Sam Howard: Yeah, so startups have this very strong bias towards short snappy copy and like, nobody reads web pages anymore.
[00:12:36] Sam Howard: Let's just have a CTA here, right?
[00:12:39] Jess: CTA is everywhere.
[00:12:41] Sam Howard: Ideal case scenario.
[00:12:43] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:12:43] Sam Howard: But yeah, let's not make this a novel, basically.
[00:12:49] Sam Howard: And for some audiences this doesn't work because they are super detail oriented and they're like, I will not sign up for a demo unless I am at least 90% sure this is what I need.
[00:13:01] Jess: Oh yeah.
[00:13:02] Jess: I think we are seeing that shift in consumers wanting to be able to do their own research and almost make the buying decision prior to engaging with a rep.
[00:13:15] Jess: For sure.
[00:13:16] Jess: I find also certain demographics tend to consume long form content, as are more preferential towards longer form content, especially like certain geographical regions.
[00:13:28] Jess: Or if you have someone for procurement, they may want to learn everything they can because they want to compare you against other vendors to make sure that you're the right decision with it.
[00:13:39] Jess: So when you're working with a startup to help them produce copy.
[00:13:44] Jess: Is your output often different length copy to serve those different audiences?
[00:13:50] Jess: Or do you end up coming back with a recommendation around what would work best?
[00:13:55] Jess: Kind of generally, I think in copy.
[00:13:58] Sam Howard: It'S easier to balance the needs of please don't make me read and I want all the information on the page because there are so many ways to visually break up the page and make it easy for impatient folks to take shortcuts.
[00:14:16] Sam Howard: They don't have to read it, but the more analytical folks will appreciate having that information right there.
[00:14:24] Jess: Cool.
[00:14:24] Jess: Is it mainly a copy on website then, too?
[00:14:29] Jess: Yeah, I feel like that's where a lot of people want to consume content now versus a PDF.
[00:14:34] Jess: They want that same content in a web form to go through and parse.
[00:14:38] Jess: Is that true?
[00:14:39] Sam Howard: Back and forth on PDF?
[00:14:41] Sam Howard: Because sometimes they can be useful, I guess.
[00:14:45] Sam Howard: But this just doesn't come up in my life.
[00:14:49] Sam Howard: Like I am simply web copy.
[00:14:51] Jess: Okay, yeah.
[00:14:53] Jess: Cool.
[00:14:53] Jess: Yeah.
[00:14:54] Trends and Challenges in Startup Copywriting
[00:14:54] Jess: Are there any trends in copywriting that you're noticing or copy that you're noticing?
[00:15:00] Sam Howard: I think that for startups, the biggest trend is let us follow best practices or let us go to the swipe file of the same awesome SaaS websites and try to be just like them.
[00:15:16] Sam Howard: And sometimes it's like a fan can have a hero section that does not really explain what they do because they don't need to, or any other market leader does not really have to explain what they do.
[00:15:34] Sam Howard: But you're a start.
[00:15:37] Jess: Yeah.
[00:15:38] Jess: They're almost emulating where that company is as a unicorn instead of looking at what that company was doing when they were the same size.
[00:15:48] Sam Howard: Yes.
[00:15:49] Sam Howard: I think a while back I used Wayback Machine to look at what Mailchimp's website was like way back when they were starting out, even design aside, even though like 90s design was definitely there, they were extremely specific in the beginning that they had to be.
[00:16:09] Sam Howard: And then the further you go, the more high level their homepage becomes.
[00:16:15] Jess: Yeah.
[00:16:15] Jess: Even MailChimp used to position themselves as the email marketing platform of choice for growing companies and that someday you graduate from MailChimp into Marketo or HubSpot.
[00:16:28] Jess: They didn't try and be that platform for everyone and now they're trying to be a platform that competes against HubSpot and Mercado, especially in pricing.
[00:16:37] Jess: They are getting expensive and I'm going to be honest.
[00:16:41] Jess: I set up MailChimp recently for a client because the platform they're using for publishing has a native MailChimp integration.
[00:16:49] Jess: It's shit.
[00:16:52] Jess: It has not changed much since the 90s.
[00:16:55] Jess: It is not good in my opinion.
[00:16:57] Jess: Don't sue me, MailChimp.
[00:16:59] Jess: It's a fact.
[00:17:01] Jess: Yeah, but they used to have drastically different positioning than they do now.
[00:17:06] Sam Howard: Yeah.
[00:17:07] Sam Howard: I feel like I should be defending MailChimp, but I used to be equally frustrated when I was working inside it.
[00:17:17] Sam Howard: So let's just move on, I guess.
[00:17:20] Understanding the Needs of Early Stage SaaS Companies
[00:17:20] Jess: So you predominantly work with earlier stage SaaS companies.
[00:17:24] Jess: Do you find that it's pretty uniform in the needs that they have when it comes to copy?
[00:17:31] Jess: And it tends to typically be, you mentioned before positioning differentiators and then it goes into copy.
[00:17:39] Jess: Is that typically what that whole package looks like?
[00:17:41] Jess: Are there other steps before the copy itself?
[00:17:45] Sam Howard: Well, to be clear for messaging and positioning, my main task is to make sure that it is aligned with what's coming back from customer research because otherwise we'll just keep walking in a totally wrong direction and all of the copy work will be pointless.
[00:18:01] Sam Howard: If it's not, then it should be a part of a bigger conversation for the startup itself.
[00:18:06] Jess: Like you don't know who you're selling.
[00:18:08] Sam Howard: To or sometimes it just turns out that the assumptions about why they're buying are slightly different, which is less bad.
[00:18:16] Sam Howard: Right.
[00:18:16] Sam Howard: It's just we need to tweak the messaging as opposed to who are these people and where are they coming from?
[00:18:23] Jess: Yeah, just like a little change with it.
[00:18:26] The Importance of Offer Optimization and Demo Presentation in Copy Conversion
[00:18:26] Jess: Is there anything else people should know about Copy for conversion?
[00:18:32] Sam Howard: There are many things that people should know about Copy for conversion.
[00:18:38] Jess: Pick a few.
[00:18:39] Sam Howard: I've been having a lot of conversations with startups on Growth Mentor where I do consulting calls and I think that the most kind of undervalued part is offer optimization.
[00:18:57] Sam Howard: So anybody can add the book a demo section and everybody does add that section.
[00:19:05] Sam Howard: The question is, if all of your competitors are offering a demo, like, why would I invest in spending my time with you?
[00:19:14] Sam Howard: And if they're feeling really brave, the question is, is that even the right offer for your startup?
[00:19:20] Jess: Is the offer tweaking around maybe not offering a demo but offering something else?
[00:19:26] Jess: Or is it around like incentivizing the demo?
[00:19:29] Jess: What does that usually look like?
[00:19:31] Sam Howard: So the bigger question of should it even be a demo aside, which I really wish more people would not just try and gate everything in sight, we can come back to that.
[00:19:43] Sam Howard: But for demos, I think the biggest issue is making prospects want to be on the demo.
[00:19:53] Sam Howard: When I hear incentivize, I start thinking about those gift cards that some start.
[00:19:58] Jess: That'S exactly what I was thinking of, bribe everyone.
[00:20:02] Sam Howard: That is such a like if your goal is to have demos, period, and you don't care about the quality of prospects coming in or even if they are a prospect to begin with, then sure, gift cards are the way to go.
[00:20:16] Sam Howard: But building up the narrative that makes them want to join you on the demo and addressing their concerns around what?
[00:20:26] Sam Howard: If I'm going to be hearing from your sales reps for the next five months every day, which is sometimes a thing, and showing them that it will be worth their time, that's what I would like to see happen much more.
[00:20:42] Jess: And when it comes to should you have a demo who should not have demos and who should have demos.
[00:20:50] Sam Howard: Something that comes up a lot is like when you talk to the sales folks, there's always this one moment when prospects are like, oh, wow, this is what the product does.
[00:21:00] Sam Howard: Now I get it.
[00:21:01] Sam Howard: So in an ideal world, this, wow, this is what it does, does not happen during a demo.
[00:21:08] Sam Howard: If you can show it on the website.
[00:21:11] Sam Howard: Yeah, you should be doing that.
[00:21:13] Jess: So it's really getting out of the demo as the spot where customers are starting to put the connections together, what the product does.
[00:21:22] Jess: So they see it on the website and they're like, oh man, this looks really cool.
[00:21:26] Jess: And then they want to see the demo instead of having the demo be the mechanism to deliver that value.
[00:21:33] Sam Howard: Exactly.
[00:21:34] Sam Howard: Okay.
[00:21:35] Jess: Yeah, I think that's a really the approach makes sense.
[00:21:39] Jess: I can think of a million companies that don't do it.
[00:21:44] Sam Howard: Yeah, well, again, that's the assumption that you need to get a hold of that person and present the product to them.
[00:21:53] Sam Howard: Which in cases when a product is complex or if it has to be customized or it just has to be I don't know, I'm grasping at straws here.
[00:22:06] Sam Howard: What else can there are actual cases when a demo is the way to go, but ClickUp can be insanely complex and yet somehow they manage to not make everybody go through the demo.
[00:22:20] Jess: ClickUp is.
[00:22:22] Jess: I love ClickUp.
[00:22:23] Jess: I want to caveat this statement.
[00:22:25] Jess: I love ClickUp.
[00:22:26] Jess: There is such a massive learning curve with ClickUp and I feel like if I saw a demo and it walked me through how to set up automations and how to do all the work, I wouldn't use it because it's a lot of steps.
[00:22:40] Jess: I think Clickups messaging mainly focuses on the output that having organized systems gives you versus the product experience too, if I recall from why I bought them when I signed up.
[00:22:55] Sam Howard: Yes, but with those products, you know it's going to be painful.
[00:22:59] Sam Howard: You know that until you have systems set up, it's not fun.
[00:23:05] Sam Howard: So seeing that future of a beautiful organized, everything works outcome definitely helps get through that initial frustration and pain.
[00:23:19] The importance of loom in tech stack and communication
[00:23:19] Jess: Speaking of tools, though, do you have a favorite tool in your tech stack?
[00:23:25] Sam Howard: So many.
[00:23:29] Sam Howard: I'm going to say loom, which is a very weird thing to say, but I like loom.
[00:23:36] Sam Howard: It just helps me explain what I'm doing.
[00:23:42] Jess: Yeah, and not no, I like loom also.
[00:23:45] Jess: Yeah.
[00:23:45] Jess: I have a candle float from loom somewhere that I think the scent is not a meeting that's beautiful.
[00:23:55] Jess: Or it's like this could have been a loom.
[00:23:57] Jess: Instead, I'll find it.
[00:23:59] Jess: I'll insert it for our episode.
[00:24:01] Jess: Well, Sam, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Marketers Talking Marketing.
[00:24:07] Jess: We'll put links in the show notes below to all of your profiles if anyone wants to connect and we'll see everyone on the next episode.